How early do we start them?

[coach carson]

I've just read a very interesting book called the Talent Code by Daniel Coyle. Similar to Malcolm Gladwell's "Outliers" they say that you need 10 years of good quality practice to make it to the top of your chosen pursuit. That would tend to suggest that if you were aiming to win at cadet level, fencers should be starting regular fencing practice from the age of 6 or 7. Views?

[Captchris]

Currently I have an 8 year old who shows great enthusiasm and has achieved a few medals. His technical skill isnt bad and I believe his tactical skills will develop with age. If he wanted to become a top cadet fencer I feel he may have it.

Unfortunately children dont often see the long term plan; they may plateau with their competitive success and hence become discontent for several reasons. Hormones and growth spurts may contribute to a loss in co-ordination for a while. This can therefore take a psychological and emotional toll on the young fencer.

I seem to remember seeing a thread previously which compared two theoretical fencers. One who showed a great deal of skill and achievement early on and then plateau'd, whereas another fencer, who started at the same age, did not have the same amount of success but instead was determined and continued to work. Therefore they surpassed the first fencer as they continued to work on skills etc. throughout the 'dry' period.

[coach carson]

I'm not sure it's for the kids to get the long term view. Rather for the adults to get it and put the facilities in place to enable success. For example to continue to advocate good quality practice, rather than to sit back after enjoying early success. How the kids are motivated and excited about the sport are obviously going to be important factors. As is the quality of the coaching. But I still think the quantity of practice is something we don't hear a lot about in the UK and that comes out strong in both Outliers and The Talent Code.

[mikey]

Hi guys,

We offer access in to fencing from 4 years on.

Personally though I think in cadet fencing it takes nowhere near ten years to create a top athlete. I think that if a 13/14 year old shows coordination, natural timing, tactical awareness and dedication that with the right coaching and quality sparring they could easily make the cadet worlds and get a 32+.

I think the difficulty with younger fencers is keeping them interested! We've had numerous nine and ten year olds with oodles of talent give up fencing in favour of other sports such as football and cricket, and you can't blame them really!

Mikey

[coach carson]

"I think that if a 13/14 year old shows coordination, natural timing, tactical awareness and dedication that with the right coaching and quality sparring they could easily make the cadet worlds and get a 32+." [/I]



I'm interested. Can you name one?

But actually I'm talking about a medal at this level. A L32 is pretty average for the Worlds.

[marg]

Originally Posted by coach carson

"I think that if a 13/14 year old shows coordination, natural timing, tactical awareness and dedication that with the right coaching and quality sparring they could easily make the cadet worlds and get a 32+." [/I]



I'm interested. Can you name one?

But actually I'm talking about a medal at this level. A L32 is pretty average for the Worlds.

I think I know the lad that Mikey is talking about and the lure of football and big money I suppose looked a bit more attractive .
But, I believe it would normally take about 10 years to produce a top fencer and I think eight is about the age to start.

[mikey]

Originally Posted by coach carson

"I think that if a 13/14 year old shows coordination, natural timing, tactical awareness and dedication that with the right coaching and quality sparring they could easily make the cadet worlds and get a 32+." [/I]



I'm interested. Can you name one?

But actually I'm talking about a medal at this level. A L32 is pretty average for the Worlds.

I don't really think it's appropriate to name anyone on here, but to give you an example, one of ours has just quialified for cadet worlds having fenced sabre for less than a year, and still got another year in cadets to go.

I know a 32 isn't ground breaking, it's just the minimum result I expect this time around. Next year should be a different story!

[Red]

Originally Posted by mikey

I don't really think it's appropriate to name anyone on here, but to give you an example, one of ours has just quialified for cadet worlds having fenced sabre for less than a year, and still got another year in cadets to go.

I know a 32 isn't ground breaking, it's just the minimum result I expect this time around. Next year should be a different story!

She fenced sabre at the 08 Bristol Open (I remember some of your lot mentioning that it was her first competition), so maybe a little bit over a year.
That said, along with your other girl in the juniors (who apparently picked up a sabre for the first time on a beach in August 08) it seems that creating top sabre girls quickly doesn't seem to be a problem for Truro...

[mikey]

Originally Posted by Red

She fenced sabre at the 08 Bristol Open (I remember some of your lot mentioning that it was her first competition), so maybe a little bit over a year.
That said, along with your other girl in the juniors (who apparently picked up a sabre for the first time on a beach in August 08) it seems that creating top sabre girls quickly doesn't seem to be a problem for Truro...

Maybe a little over a year then, my mistake.

Thats what happens when you have some of the best coaches and sparring partners!

Truro's a machine! lol

[coach carson]

I may hold the record of giving an individual with no fencing experience three lessons who then went on to win a British Championship.

The Truro machine will achieve great things because of both quantity as well as quality of work.

[tigger]

Alice fenced sabre at Bristol 08 for fun, but principally did foil until May 2009.

Zoe fenced foil until May 2009 and made the GB junior squad after her first few comps.

I think the misunderstanding here is the definition of "the top of your chosen pursuit". I don't view cadet fencing as the top of the chosen pursuit of the truro fencers.

I tend to agree with Mikey that you can produce a successful cadet after 3 years (particularly in WS). But I think 10-15 years for a successful senior.

[coach carson]

We've got a guy at work who was a good cross country runner then did a marathon for fun in 2hrs18mins. But the skill was there from an early age and he is hopeful of an Olympic slot. I would be properly amazed at a medal at cadet worlds after 3 years from scratch. Making it from the UK in 3 years, possible. But certainly would think impossible at Junior or senior. But it is possible to win world seniors as a cadet. With 10 years of quality practice. I think that is the point of the books referenced above.

[Mini Musketeer]

At Mini Musketeers we take children form 6 to 10 years using the Mini Fence foam swords, Aramis plastic foils and Zivkovic masks. I've currently got some 7 year olds who are "naturals" and will soon be directed on to clubs where they can use the real thing. The younger you start them the greater chance of identifying talent and feeding it up the system. But most children have fun and get a range of benefits from us even if the do not progress on. A big problem is finding a suitable club for them when they move on from us and there is a high drop out rate at this stage. I notice some clubs starting to meet earlier in the evening to fit in wth families with younger children.
(One club we feed to has around eighty children and around twenty of them started with us !)

[munkey]

The figure that I've heard is 10,000 hours of good quality, dedicated training/practice to become world class at senior level at sports that require a combination of physical, technical and tactical skills (like fencing). This assumes some reasonable degree of raw talent before training begins. These 10,000 hours work out at an average of 10 hours a week for 20 years. So if you start at 6 years old you might expect to be a genuine medal contender in your mid 20s.

Of course these blanket figures are subject to a huge range of variables: raw talent, quality of coaching, environment, injury, opportunity, maturity of event, number of global participants, etc, etc, etc.

Anyway, getting back to the point, I suppose my answer is as young as possible, with the best possible coaching that makes the long process of learning the necessary skills as enjoyable as possible.

My even shorter answer: 5 or 6.

Munkey

[randomsabreur]

Big issue with starting too young can be longevity. The French start at 5 (with proper size zero foils) and can move on to other weapons later (epee is about 11 if I remember rightly). BUT they are not training seriously from 5. It's all about games, co-ordination, a bit of footwork (what's the time Mr Wolf, Simon Says, Grandmothers' footsteps etc) and a few fights. Foam sabres come out for fun at the end of a session (also involving footwork though).

It probably does take 10 years to learn something like fencing well, but surely the aim should be by the time you are getting close to peaking in mid 20s, rather than peaking as a cadet...

Was Vezzali cadet world champion?

[tigger]

Vezzali won cadet worlds in 89, 90 & 91

[Shieldmaiden]

It's always great to get more people into fencing particulary the young ones. However, a very good friend of mine was absolutely brillant foilest and could easily make up 25 point deficits in team matches and when she had a fifteen minute sabre lesson she was able to beat the best male sabreur at the club who'd been doing it for about 4 years. I understand though that the foilest in question was pushed very much into by the parents who made her start at a very young age, but by the time she was 19 moved away to University she just stopped because she'd grown sick and tired of it. In comparision another good friend of mine didn't start until he was about 14 and had an instant talent for sabre and I've seen him win opens and do very well at others and he is still sticking with it.

I think it does depend on the individual child and the parents. There can sometimes be such a thing as too much fencing. Although it always feels great to win, emphasis should be placed on having a bit of fun with it amd having the opportunity to fence different people

[mikey]

Originally Posted by Shieldmaiden

. There can sometimes be such a thing as too much fencing.

Are you having a laugh!

[Shieldmaiden]

I know I know, it does sound funny and ridiculous but I have encountered people who give up fencing when they are extraordinarily good at it because they were pushed so much into doing it and competing at such a young age. The foilest i referred to pretty much used to practice five nights a week and did every competition going but when they got older they just quit because they had had enough of it.

I think its case of striking the right balance, of course practice makes perfect, but sometimes a break is needed. I personally find that if I take a week off I come back more refreshed and fence much better. It's also got to be made fun rather than concentrating on winning all the time. Enjoy first and then win if you can.

[JohnL]

I don't believe it's necessarily the age that matters, although I personally believe that about 8-9 is somewhere about right. The important thing is to work with a group of youngsters that are developed to wok positively together.

This gives the youngsters a feeling of belonging which is necessary to sustain practice over a long period. Once you have a "core" group of say 6 fencers, get another group a year younger and develop the same.

Eventually you'll have a self perpetuating system that allows individuals to function within an overall group structure.